Author Topic: The Road to the White House 2016  (Read 15952 times)

Offline BikeSeatSniffer

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Re: The Road to the White House 2016
« Reply #540 on: August 11, 2017, 01:19:12 PM »
Just not sure why you used my username in a post when I explicitly said the opposite to what you claimed I had said. Unless you can show me where I said Brexit voters are knuckle-draggers? Very odd for you to claim I said so giving the nature of my initial post. Maybe you want me to have that opinion to suit your narrative? I don't know, but please don't misquote me in the future, especially when the topic is regarding my perceptions of other people.

I wrote "Soss and DSC" because you're both, broadly speaking, making similar arguments. But no, you didn't call Brexit voters nasty names, that was just Soss. You took the more patronising angle of "they're misled, I'm not".

I apologise for tarring you with the Soss brush, Again, I'll be careful not to lump you together with him in future.
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Offline TK

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Re: The Road to the White House 2016
« Reply #541 on: August 11, 2017, 01:28:22 PM »
That's because they are.


FACT.

In some cases, not in all....

There were people voting for both leave AND remain for equally stupid reasons and they're equally f***ing idiots.


This kind of sweeping, blanket statement makes you look like the stereotypical "remoaner" who is so emotionally incapable of accepting the result that they'll unthinkingly use whatever ridiculous line of attack pops into their heads - if you want to paint yourself as the smart one (which you seemingly constantly like to do) then you might want to avoid being one of those:
 
Pant pissing f***ing imbeciles who cannot think for themselves

Offline sossujrurl

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Re: The Road to the White House 2016
« Reply #542 on: August 11, 2017, 02:21:22 PM »
It's the only way I get responses. Carrying out research and presenting the results in a reasoned manner gets ignored. Chucking insults about and ending spurious claims with "FACT" seems to elicit more discussion.

I just wonder given the knowledge people have now, the no plan negotiations and a taste of the long term consequences, would the country still vote to leave?
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Offline TK

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Re: The Road to the White House 2016
« Reply #543 on: August 11, 2017, 02:40:20 PM »
I just wonder given the knowledge people have now, the no plan negotiations and a taste of the long term consequences, would the country still vote to leave?

I don't think either of us can answer that....

It's an interesting thought though - on the one hand, nothing you've just mentioned impacts on the strongest arguments for leaving (generally coming under the sovereignty umbrella, including the ability to control all aspects of immigration - regardless of the fact that neither of our major parties are currently any better than the EU itself anyway) and I'm sure the mistrust of the EU's constant drive towards further integration will have been further strengthened by their behaviour during the talks (even though it's been every bit as predictable as ours - both sides set unachievable high targets and plan to be worked down to meet in the middle, classic negotations).


Plus, the factors you've mentioned might tip the balance for people who see strong arguments on both sides - for me, it came down to short-to-medium-term economics vs sovereignty and the possibility for future governments (ie: not our current incompetents and not the even-less-competents opposite) to set us on better paths than the ones we've been on...
It wasn't the best time to be leaving, which counted against it too - but then the long period of time between such votes meant that significant damage could've been done by the time we got another chance to vote on it.


I guess you just can't please everyone...
Had we not voted leave, the Tories wouldn't have called that snap election and then proceeded to screw themselves, creating the illusion that Corbyn is actually somewhat popular (when really, he's just less unpopular by comparison than he should be) - so from the point of view of someone on the far-left, maybe Brexit is a good thing in the short-term because it gives them more time in the political limelight. :lol:

Offline DontSellCabaye

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Re: The Road to the White House 2016
« Reply #544 on: August 11, 2017, 03:11:37 PM »
I wrote "Soss and DSC" because you're both, broadly speaking, making similar arguments. But no, you didn't call Brexit voters nasty names, that was just Soss. You took the more patronising angle of "they're misled, I'm not".

I apologise for tarring you with the Soss brush, Again, I'll be careful not to lump you together with him in future.

No, you have perceived that I was being patronising as I all you have is words on a screen to make a judgement, that's fine - but if we were in the same room you would know there's nothing patronising about what I said, empathetic would be much closer to the feeling.

No problem with being lumped in with Soss, one of the most interesting thoughtful posters on here. Maybe address each post/situation as they arise rather than making sweeping statements and categorising how you will respond the future. It's not that smart.
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Offline BikeSeatSniffer

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Re: The Road to the White House 2016
« Reply #545 on: August 11, 2017, 03:50:01 PM »
No problem with being lumped in with Soss, one of the most interesting thoughtful posters on here. Maybe address each post/situation as they arise rather than making sweeping statements and categorising how you will respond the future. It's not that smart.

Again, I will. And my apology from the previous post still stands.

Off topic slightly though, why are you so convinced that it's others who are misled? "Perception" and "Dysfunction" are your go-to words in most discussions, with the implication that you are able to perceive what others cannot, as if you've reached a higher plain of existence or something.
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Offline sossujrurl

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Re: The Road to the White House 2016
« Reply #546 on: August 11, 2017, 05:32:54 PM »
I don't think either of us can answer that....

It's an interesting thought though - on the one hand, nothing you've just mentioned impacts on the strongest arguments for leaving (generally coming under the sovereignty umbrella, including the ability to control all aspects of immigration - regardless of the fact that neither of our major parties are currently any better than the EU itself anyway) and I'm sure the mistrust of the EU's constant drive towards further integration will have been further strengthened by their behaviour during the talks (even though it's been every bit as predictable as ours - both sides set unachievable high targets and plan to be worked down to meet in the middle, classic negotations).


Plus, the factors you've mentioned might tip the balance for people who see strong arguments on both sides - for me, it came down to short-to-medium-term economics vs sovereignty and the possibility for future governments (ie: not our current incompetents and not the even-less-competents opposite) to set us on better paths than the ones we've been on...
It wasn't the best time to be leaving, which counted against it too - but then the long period of time between such votes meant that significant damage could've been done by the time we got another chance to vote on it.


I guess you just can't please everyone...
Had we not voted leave, the Tories wouldn't have called that snap election and then proceeded to screw themselves, creating the illusion that Corbyn is actually somewhat popular (when really, he's just less unpopular by comparison than he should be) - so from the point of view of someone on the far-left, maybe Brexit is a good thing in the short-term because it gives them more time in the political limelight. :lol:

I dispute quite a lot what you say. It's just your opinion that the opposition is less competent. It is my opinion that Labour would make a much better country except for those who think that it's OK to live in a country where wealthy individuals and large corporations get tax breaks and children live in poverty. They might be slightly worse off but still far wealthier than the rest of us.

We have always been in control of immigration. First from outside the EU we can decide who comes in Visa free and who doesn't. And then from within the EU freedom of movement only covers visits of up to 3 months. If someone can't demonstrate financial independence after this time then they can be removed. Our government decided not to implement this, mainly because it would cost too much to implement.

When Poland, Latvia, etc first joined the EU work permits were required (the same as any accession state) for the first two years. Our government decided to open the borders on a request from industry. Again we decided not to control migration.

More recently the EU allowed us special security measures: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/521926/The_UK_s_cooperation_with_the_EU_on_justice_and_home_affairs__and_on_foreign_policy_and_security_issues.pdf

Particularly interesting is 1.6 and 1.7


We have been in control of immigration all of this time. Neoliberalist capitalism decided that cheap labour from former Soviet bloc states was more important than proper immigration controls. It wasn't the EU it was greed.

What else? Oh yeah, sovereignty. The ability to govern oneself?

In 2001 we passed this law:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/william-hague/8642073/Now-you-have-power-to-veto-EU-changes-in-referendum.html

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Offline DontSellCabaye

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Re: The Road to the White House 2016
« Reply #547 on: August 12, 2017, 01:54:59 PM »
Again, I will. And my apology from the previous post still stands.

Off topic slightly though, why are you so convinced that it's others who are misled? "Perception" and "Dysfunction" are your go-to words in most discussions, with the implication that you are able to perceive what others cannot, as if you've reached a higher plain of existence or something.

Again, you're imposing your own meaning onto what I say. I claim to be above nobody, yet you've based your post around the idea that I do. You are incorrect. As far as what you said prior goes, I use the words dysfunction and perception a lot as I know and feel through experience that our natural state as human beings in one of love. To be moved away from that loving awareness to a state of fear, anger and suffering is to perceive yourself and the world around you in a dysfunctional way. Simple as that, no judgement attached - whether you choose to keep seeing it that way is entirely up to you and nothing to do with me.

This dialogue with you has shown me that people will see what they want to see or read what they want to read... especially over the internet where there's no non-verbal communication in play. I feel what you think I say is entirely an internal reflection of yourself.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 01:57:21 PM by DontSellCabaye »
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Offline BikeSeatSniffer

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Re: The Road to the White House 2016
« Reply #548 on: August 12, 2017, 07:21:52 PM »
I use the words dysfunction and perception a lot as I know and feel through experience that our natural state as human beings in one of love. To be moved away from that loving awareness to a state of fear, anger and suffering is to perceive yourself and the world around you in a dysfunctional way.



Including our simian ancestors, we've lived tribally - suspiciously, jealously, fearfully - for hundreds of thousands of years. Love, hate, fear and anger were all necessary to the success of human evolution and if you were to any one of them away we likely wouldn't have made it as a species.

Of course, this is not to say that we can't or shouldn't use our intellect to suppress certain evolutionary impulses  - we do this in many ways already. But to suggest that love is our "natural state", and that any deviation from this is a marker of dysfunction, is not congruent with science.



« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 07:22:23 PM by BikeSeatSniffer »
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Offline DontSellCabaye

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Re: The Road to the White House 2016
« Reply #549 on: August 13, 2017, 12:20:00 PM »


Including our simian ancestors, we've lived tribally - suspiciously, jealously, fearfully - for hundreds of thousands of years. Love, hate, fear and anger were all necessary to the success of human evolution and if you were to any one of them away we likely wouldn't have made it as a species.

Of course, this is not to say that we can't or shouldn't use our intellect to suppress certain evolutionary impulses  - we do this in many ways already. But to suggest that love is our "natural state", and that any deviation from this is a marker of dysfunction, is not congruent with science.





We have more potential as living beings than to just merely survive. I agree fear probably helped us survive at one point, however we have now become possessed by fear, possessed by ego and have fallen into an illusion of separateness to the point where it is dysfunctional. The fear is no longer serving us. Why do so many die of starvation and whilst others die of obesity at the same time? It's because of the dysfunction, the thing that makes a man feel so attached to this physical form and so detached from his loving nature of pure awareness before thought, judgement or interpretation, that he believes accumulating physical wealth and material is so important that it is actually life or death and he would be willing to see others suffer in exchange for it. That is dysfunctional. Unless of course you believe we are all merely individuals travelling through this world alone? Then it's probably fine.
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Online Deffy.

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Re: The Road to the White House 2016
« Reply #550 on: August 13, 2017, 12:32:45 PM »
But we are individuals. We are born alone, we die alone. Without the ability to link with others we are alone in our own skulls. We can form attatchments as we journey through life but ultimately we are alone.

Offline BikeSeatSniffer

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Re: The Road to the White House 2016
« Reply #551 on: August 13, 2017, 05:18:51 PM »
We have more potential as living beings than to just merely survive. I agree fear probably helped us survive at one point, however we have now become possessed by fear, possessed by ego and have fallen into an illusion of separateness to the point where it is dysfunctional. The fear is no longer serving us. Why do so many die of starvation and whilst others die of obesity at the same time? It's because of the dysfunction, the thing that makes a man feel so attached to this physical form and so detached from his loving nature of pure awareness before thought, judgement or interpretation, that he believes accumulating physical wealth and material is so important that it is actually life or death and he would be willing to see others suffer in exchange for it. That is dysfunctional. Unless of course you believe we are all merely individuals travelling through this world alone? Then it's probably fine.

Fear unquestionably still serves us, as societies and as individuals.

On the topic of fearing other people, which I think is what you're vaguely alluding to, current migration trends are unprecedented. I'm unaware of any civilisation in history which has welcomed in huge numbers of people who hate them and their way of life and which has then sought to shelter them from any criticism. Look at Linda Sarsour in America, an open advocate of Sharia Law - anti-democratic, anti-women's rights, anti-freedom - and she has millions of Americans marching behind her in support. It's cultural suicide, and I like liberal western culture.

However, I do actually share many of your ideals - a world undivided by borders and nationalist sentiment would be beautiful - I just don't think revolution or break-neck-speed change will get us there. We'd need first a much more enlightened and educated population. A population living for today(a ha haa aaa) and not for rewards in the afterlife. Unltimately, we'd need something a approaching a homegenised cultre of tolerance and liberalism, but we have to start laying the foundations more diligently.

« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 05:20:17 PM by BikeSeatSniffer »
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Offline DontSellCabaye

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Re: The Road to the White House 2016
« Reply #552 on: August 13, 2017, 06:14:47 PM »

However, I do actually share many of your ideals - a world undivided by borders and nationalist sentiment would be beautiful - I just don't think revolution or break-neck-speed change will get us there. We'd need first a much more enlightened and educated population. A population living for today(a ha haa aaa) and not for rewards in the afterlife. Unltimately, we'd need something a approaching a homegenised cultre of tolerance and liberalism, but we have to start laying the foundations more diligently.



I agree with all of that and very well said too. Although a lot of religious people I know live more presently and fully than most others, I totally agree with the sentiment you're getting at - just saying as I don't like to see or paint religion negatively as too much of my immediate experience with it (actually being in contact/conversation with people and not just reading s*** online) has been beautiful and inspiring.

I do also feel, when it comes to it, we won't have much say in how break-neck-in-speed change may happen. Sometimes change must happen, we literally threaten our very existence, it's becoming a cse of evolve or die. Collectively too, individuals and communities are already breaking out and paving a better way of their own, but a greater demand on the collective to shift is only round the corner in my opinion.
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Offline sossujrurl

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Re: The Road to the White House 2016
« Reply #553 on: August 14, 2017, 01:32:39 AM »
I'm unaware of any civilisation in history which has welcomed in huge numbers of people who hate them and their way of life and which has then sought to shelter them from any criticism.

Who's doing that?
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Offline BikeSeatSniffer

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Re: The Road to the White House 2016
« Reply #554 on: August 14, 2017, 08:45:52 AM »
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